next »

[Guest]

...loading shoutbox...

[confusedyouth]

 Hello all you debaters. I am asking about the apparant dogma confliction in the words conservative and christianity. How can one adhere to conservatism (at a total extreme is anarchy- basically every man for themselve.. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) when christianity, Jesus espically, preaches that once should 'treat others as you wish to be treated'.

Now i dont know about you, but people getting rejected from hospitals because they cant pay dosent seem like christian principles to me, neither does passing homeless people in the streets. But both happen under the conservative system.

To me.. the ideal liberal system (communism, yes dont get hung up on soviet connotations) is much closer to jesus preaching. 'do unto others as they would do unto you' because EVERYONE is equal, and no one gets left behind. Under that system, there woudl be less unfairness, because everyone would share.

Comments?

[FromHimByHimForHim]

 can you use words i can understand? big words...lol...uh...yea i dont think its fair that hospitals turn away people just because they cant pay...they should go in for help, and then get the info on paying them back after...and if they cant, they have to work or do something to pay them back...but i dont think that you should blame all Christians because some dont agree with each other on stuff...like in here, we have debates about speaking in tounges, forms of address and stuff like that...so i dont think that.....well i dont really know if you are blaming Christians or what, could you break it down what you were sayin up there? i'm getting confused...

[PixieNic]

 hey there! i agree with u! i think our world needs to start living like that. 'do unto others as they would do unto you' is such a good quoteish thing to live by. it really would make this world so much more peaceful and loving.  we live in a world where not every1 believes the same things we do, but this is something every1 can live by, not just christians

[grace~sparrow]

 wow.  y'know they're going to bring this communist suggestion up against you if you ever run for public office right. . .lol.  But yes I can definitely see your point.  I would agree w/ you, but- communism has flaws just as all the other forms of government.  It would be a wonderful system if humans didn't run it. .. power corrupts, and the 'ideal' communist system often turns into a dictatorship.  Democracy is safer in that respect.  
"no one get lefts behind". . . lol i'm sorry but the first thing that came to my mind reading that was the no child left behind act. .. .ironic isn't it. . . . :unsure:  ok ignore me i really didn't mean anything by that but my mind works in odd ways sometimes... . .

[Kirisutokyoo-Shinja]

 Communist ideal ideas, in the true form, are hypothetically great.

But yes, I will say it is not possible on our own. Human corruption
prevents this to the maximum.  

Been down this road before.

Also, when Jesus rules this Earth the millennium, that will not be
a democracy, nor communism.

Dictatorship.

The connotations given to each system does not necessarily reflect
to true nature of such a system, rather the true nature of the people
and regimes involved.

[Denver]

 

To me.. the ideal liberal system (communism, yes dont get hung up on soviet connotations) is much closer to jesus preaching. 'do unto others as they would do unto you' because EVERYONE is equal, and no one gets left behind. Under that system, there woudl be less unfairness, because everyone would share.

As said above...only ideally. The sad fact is communism causes corruption in the government and there is no way around it.

Sadly enough though, so practice also abandons morals - hence the reason the American Democratic party goes against many of the same things taught by Jesus. Take abortion, gay rights, and stem cell research for example.

To villify the conservatives, frankly, is absurd. There is a left wing nut for every right wing nut (and IMHO more of the former). I am a strong conservative from a working middle class background - in fact I lived out in the middle of nowhere because of the history of my family. However both myself and my family aren't rich - not materially anyways - but we're conservatives. Does that makes us money-pinching evil people?

It's a sadly misguided stereotype and it really angers me to see it. Honestly, you have no right to judge someone off of their political beliefs.

[confusedyouth]

 Wonderful posts everyone! thank you for your input.

I do agree with all of you- the ideals of communism are great 'in theory', but of course, looking at history bookds it does turn down. The problem with any system of government- whether it be communism or anarchy and everything inbetween, is that PEOPLE are involved. Lookign at it logically as well as theologically, it is true to say that hunams are not perfect; therefore any system that is controlled by imperfect beings will eventually fail.

And absolute power corrupts absolutely- if only there was a way to get around this. Higher being? or possibly a computer (lol) Both are unattainable now.

The connotations given to each system does not necessarily reflect
to true nature of such a system, rather the true nature of the people
and regimes involved.

Beautifully put, and i most certainly agree with you. Communism is synonomous with Soviet bolshevism, and dictatorship synonomous with hitler and the Nazis. It is unfortuate that in this day and age we cannot find a way around this, but we tend to live in the past, and are hesitant to try new things.

However both myself and my family aren't rich - not materially anyways - but we're conservatives. Does that makes us money-pinching evil people?

It's a sadly misguided stereotype and it really angers me to see it. Honestly, you have no right to judge someone off of their political beliefs.

Dont put words in my mouth; never said that nor implied it. I apologize if you feel i did. Every form of government has its flaws- indeed some liberals are likely to be godless communists bent on the oppression of the people, while indeed some conservatives will be 'money pinching evil people'. But the VAST majority of people fall between these two extremes, with most squarely on the fence, ready to be impressed or scared by whoever happens to be the flashiest.

And for the record- i never judge people soley on their political beliefs. That woudl be unfair and hypocritical. I prefer not to judge anyone ever, or at least until i have gained a greater picture of their overall self from many different viewpoints.

All i have said is that IDEALLY, a system that follows jesus commandments woudl fall on the left side of the spectrum (socialism?).

[Denver]

 

How can one adhere to conservatism (at a total extreme is anarchy- basically every man for themselve.. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) when christianity, Jesus espically, preaches that once should 'treat others as you wish to be treated'.

Now i dont know about you, but people getting rejected from hospitals because they cant pay dosent seem like christian principles to me, neither does passing homeless people in the streets. But both happen under the conservative system.

To me that suggested that you were stereotyping conservatives. I apologize if I am wrong but that's what it came out to me as.



 

[confusedyouth]

 

Take abortion, gay rights, and stem cell research for example.

Lol- no problem Denver.. its natrual during one of these debates to deal with a general view of the typical person. But obviously for the most part none fo those steriotypes are entirely applicable.

[Kirisutokyoo-Shinja]

[Kirisutokyoo-Shinja]

 Meh...he is back again. Sorry.

Hi  :unsure:

Also, the way that God wants us to live is the way things should be anyway.

However, no matter where it falls on the spectrum, it should not be classified
as such, reduced from such a high thing into human terms.  

For the way He truly wants us to live is exemplified in the perfect Kingdom of God.
If anything, you must call it that.

Furthermore for it even to happen...we konw the prerequisites, and every human being must cooperate unconditionally and completely.

Man...I feel like I'm getting back into the Utopian topics with my peepz...crazy Ideas some have. Interesting at times, irrelevant and far-fetched at others.

(Not saying you are crazy, rather stating random thoughts and facts)

I am crazy, but we won't go into that.

Also, taking up a system that supposedly engrosses the general area of the spectrum that more or less classifies from a worldy standpoint the view of Christianity on a government does not at all ensure that the process thereof nor the proceedings of such a regime would even remotely resemble that of the ideal system.

Once again leading to the same thing that has been said over and over again.

People. Thats our problem, ourselves.

hahaha, you are your worst problem.
I am my worst problem.

This is why, if we get rid of ourselves and serve God before ourselves even.
All is well.

For his will be done, not ours.

Ahh...the master of subject changing.

Sue me.

[confusedyouth]

 Interesting comments Kirisutokyoo- shinja.

I believe you are correct in saying the fundamental flaw in any system of governing is PEOPLE.. it is true.. we are our own worst enemy.

And about the communism- have you ever read teh book 1984? by george orwell. All three supernations  were self sustaining, so therefore their systems were complete. The book was very enlightening, so i will not get into it. But these supernations- compossed of multiple continents were self sustaining.

But of course, faced with the very decision to join up with such an organization, i would definitely hesitate to go in fully, if not just for the negative connotations that communism implies,but also for the fundamental losses of freedoms enjoyed under a more democratic governing system.

Oh, and for the record, if the chance came around that a divine figure (a christ) would be the dictator of a form of government, i woudlnt hesitate to sign on quite as much because, as the aformentioned divine figure is 'perfect', the system would be without its fundamental human error flaws.

 But would the system itself be perfect? Pure speculation here, but i am sure that some aspect of humanity would reject this perfect system- simply for the need to be different. Using this ideal that not all humans are perfect, one can say that no system of government- whether it be left or right leaning, will ever be perfect.. i wont know for sure.

Interesting insights! thanks and keep em coming!

[Kirisutokyoo-Shinja]

 Then surely, you and I could both argue our points on either side concerning the self-sustained nature, or the lack thereof, of the previous communist superpowers.

I have read books as well.  Not the book you have mentioned.

However, we know that there would definitely be quite a few differences
between views held by orthodox, revisionists, and post-revisionist historians.

More or less altogether, I would describe myself as a post-revisionist historian
on quite a few issues.

Anyhow, it was nice talking with you, and I would have to say, I enjoyed this
discussion.

[jahymewarrior]

 hmmmm.........conservative CHristianity....u know i dislike 'catagorizing Christians' i mean who really cares? a Christian is a CHristian u should hope....BUT for the sake of debate.....as taught in social classes.....mawahahaha....there is more than one side of 'conservatism' or liberalism...as u see there is liberalism and conservatism according to the social life, of say programs such as welfare and such, but then there are different ends of the spectrum according to business.  in that sence, the liberal and conservative ways are both CHristian....u see, liberals i agree are right in wanting to help everyone and everyone be equal, but at the same time i dont agree with gay marriage why?  because its a Christian thing, of which biblicaly was done by Christians as a man and a woman no ifs ands or buts it was holy before God, why would gay people want to be married into a "christian" activity that says that gayness is wrong? like it doesnt make sence to me...but then on the other hand Conservatives believe gays should not marry, which i agree with...and other issues as well....but....is it right for the rich to get more money...which if it was done in practice how it was suppose to be done, it would be a great system, its just the rich companys want to make more money and when given money so that they would increase wages they dont but rather they keep it even though its suppose to 'trickle down'  which in turn that would cause more people to use the same money which would in turn better the economy...where as liberals give the money right away to the people which works but in theory it doesnt go through as many hands which doesnt give the economy a bigger sence than what it is so it does not grow as much or keep up with it all.  also communism would be an awesome system, seriously....its just no system has ever been a true communist area...i mean money would not be necessary, everyone lives peacefully together.....ya it could result in anarchy, but to give credit to people, it COULD work, except for one thing called greed.  as well as a dictatorship practise of fascism.....if the leader would adhere to being nice to the people and such...and plus in Canada anyway, just because they are labelled a conservative party or whatever does not stop them from acting very liberal or visa verca...

[Denver]

 

Lol- no problem Denver.. its natrual during one of these debates to deal with a general view of the typical person. But obviously for the most part none fo those steriotypes are entirely applicable.

I'm not so sure what you mean here. What I posted above is the platform of the American Democratic Party...  :rolleyes:  

[grace~sparrow]

 i'd probly consider myself a democrat yet i don't agree w/ everything the Democratic platform says.
ooooh, 1984. . . .yes the three superpowers were self sustaining, they accomplished this by maintaining a state of constant warfare, and the people lived in horrible conditions while being told the economy was doing great. . . but, ok. .. ..  

[Denver]

 

i'd probly consider myself a democrat yet i don't agree w/ everything the Democratic platform says.

Indeed - that's the type of person I think a lot of. I get sick of the people who go along with what they want because it's what the party says. I'm a Republican - but that doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. I'm a Conservative before a Republican and a Christian before both.

[confusedyouth]

 

I'm not so sure what you mean here. What I posted above is the platform of the American Democratic Party... 

Lol, and what i posted above were side effects of the Republican platform.

Now admittedly the conservative party does have some points i identify with- like the speaking out against abortion. And the paying of fewer taxes. Me, like any normal person does enjoy having lots of money to spend on me- and frankly the liberal system takes away my money in taxes.

I think it is pretty safe to say that both sides of the spectrum have their pros and cons. And christianity probably falls somewhere on the middle in a modern society, at opposed to either extremes of the scale.

[Denver]

 Well, your statements were made about the general Conservative Christian and mine about the general American Democrat.

I think it is pretty safe to say that both sides of the spectrum have their pros and cons. And christianity probably falls somewhere on the middle in a modern society, at opposed to either extremes of the scale.

Well, perhaps, but the typical Democratic party member and many moderates don't indentify with many of the Christian views that are very Conservative. Repulican's aren't the party of God but neither are the Democrats. I just happen to see that when you go through and examine the Biblical messages and Republican platform, you see a strong correlation on many of the issues.

[jahymewarrior]

 ya, and i think where u are raised and how the people around u believe, it affects you...like out west in Canada...southern alberta....very conservative area...even though there are like zero big businesses! and its weird, my pastor is a conservative which he will readily admit to, and why? because of issues like abortion, gay rights and on and on (plus lols...why would u want to vote in someone u KNOW is a scandler and liar)  but, u know i grew up here, not really givin much opportunity to accept the 'other side' of voting, because everyone else is so against them, yes with reason, but it gets to the point alot of young teens that are gonna vote in a few years vote for the green party and the marijuana party, why? because the name is right where they stand as liberal, conservative, it gets sticky and icky...