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JC Youth - Christian Teen Forum > Christian Discussions & Debates > Christian Debate (Moderator: RAVENOUS> Mosaic Law For Christians
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« on: June 08, 2010, 06:40:45 AM »

In a recent discussion at Bible study we considered which of the 600+ laws from the Books of Law are applicable to Christians. Many felt that only the 10 commandments applied. The more I study the lessons in the Gospel of Matthew, the more I think perhaps we are subject to most of the laws - excluding blood sacrifice laws which were fulfilled by the great sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2010, 07:01:23 AM »

What church do you attend?
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2010, 08:02:21 AM »

In a recent discussion at Bible study we considered which of the 600+ laws from the Books of Law are applicable to Christians. Many felt that only the 10 commandments applied. The more I study the lessons in the Gospel of Matthew, the more I think perhaps we are subject to most of the laws - excluding blood sacrifice laws which were fulfilled by the great sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Many Christians feel there are too many laws to follow, and that trying to fulfill so many laws is impossible. I'd like to point out that if you live in America, in any state, you must abide by at least four times the number of laws in the bible just to be a good citizen. That's both federal regulations as well as state laws. From reporting corporate tax information, to staying under the speed limit. Of that vast number of laws, many are secondary type laws that you just have to abide by, an example being: "Do not steal ---> shoplift." There are more affirmative laws (stuff you HAVE to do, like you must pay taxes) to be followed in the state/federal code of law than in the entirety of the bible both New and Old Testament combined. Most citizens follow the state/federal laws to a great extent, some to the letter without issue.

Yet, the OT's laws are too many? It blows the mind. Want another mind blower about being able to observe the commandments? The next time you are in the shower washing up before bed, stand there under the warm water and meditate on the fact that at that very moment you are obeying all of the commandments.

Peace
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2010, 04:08:08 AM »

RAVENOUS makes a good point.  (but could you explain the shower comment?  Sounds interesting).

Which laws should we abide by?  By way of explanation:

"Build a parapet around your roof so you're not guilty of someone's death"- Lev 19:19.  Well, today we don't build parapets, usually.  Usually we don't even walk on our roofs!  BUT- if you have a common situation, you should take the proper safety precautions so as not to be negligent about others safety.  Let's say motor boats are a common way of life- provide life jackets!  Or let's say you drive everywere (wait, we do)- wear seatbelts, only drive a car that's "road worthy", etc.

"You shall have a specified place you always go pooh; you should take an instrument to dig and cover it, and preform the act a good distance away from the camp"-Deut 23:12-13  In other words, please be sanetary.  I don't think God expects us to always relieve ourselves like they did in the desert- in other words, I don't think God is against toilets.  BUT- He would be against our toilet being in our kitchen, and/or us not flushing and cleaning our toilet on regular basis.

- -
So yes, I think the laws apply- not the exact law as culture changes due to factors we can't help (like geography, the government we have, etc.) but more so the eternal aspects presented by the laws.

Note: in a discussion a few weeks back between me and RAVENOUS, I kept saying "the spiritual aspects".  I was totally mistaken- what I meant was "the eternal aspects".  Sure, we can have spiritual aspects (such as Paul saying "For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He?" in 1 Cor 9:9), but we must be careful trying to figure those out.  I definitely agree that all the laws "eternal aspects" apply today.
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 07:16:42 AM »


Normally, when in the shower you fulfill all of your lawful requirements because you are breaking no commandments, and there is nothing required of you at the moment.

People think there are 5 million commandments you have to obey or you break the law and this gives those people the idea that it is impossible to walk upright and obey all of the commandments. There are a relative small number of commandments you are required to do during the day, as most commandments are concerning what you shouldn't do.

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Which laws should we abide by?

Only that which is applicable, which has always been the case. In Ancient Israel, only the sons of Aaron were required to obey the Priest commandments, and only Nazarites were required to obey the law of the Nazarites. If you build a house with a roof for people to walk on, you're required to build a guide rail so people don't fall off. If you don't have a house with a roof you can walk on, you're not lawfully required to build a guide rail. If you live in a camp with people, make your expulsions in a designated area away from the rest of the people. Those two are direct commandments, and if you obey those direct commandments you cannot be judged according to the letter of the law.

The "eternal aspects" are termed "indirect commandments" by me as far as I see it. Such as your example of Deut 23:12,13 in that the direct commandment is that if you live "in a camp" you have to take a shovel and poop outside of camp. The indirect commandment for this is that we are required to dispose of human waste appropriately, and in a sanitary manner.

Even with the direct and indirect commandments applied to us today, there are still few commandments we are required to actively do during the day. Not a lot of people understand this and call the commandments a burden. This type of reasoning and irresponsible thinking makes me further believe that knowledge and wisdom breaks bondage.

I'm going to start a thread where each commandment is discussed, and people will start to see that obedience to the totality of the written law is a lot less scary than what they think.

Peace
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 11:40:47 AM »

RAVENOUS: In general, I think we are in agreement.  Pretty cool.  And I agree with your idea about discussing each law.  Also, glad to see we've cleared up the whole "spirit" vs "eternal" (indirect cmmandments).  I wished we had gotten that a few weeks ago!


jamesaaland:
RAVENOUS answered better (more clear) than I.  Some commandments which I'd say definitely apply to all, on a regular basis (if they culture words, like "vineyard" or "you were a slave in Egypt", you can easily realize the meaning behind the cultural words):

-10 commandments, obviously.  Now we'd have to discuss some meaning (as in "must we really worship only on the sabbath?  What if we steal a gun from a madman?").  Maybe we could make another set of threads over the 10 commandments, unless RAVENOUS plans to cover them in his planned thread.

-Several of the 10 commandments are repeated.  Yes, the 10 show up twice, but at other times, it says "Don't steal.  Don't commit adultery.  etc."

-No witchcraft.  No soothsaying (palm reading, tarot cards, fortune telling basically).  Any of those commands, follow them.

-Keep your sexuality under control, and use it only how God intended.  Any of those commands, follow.

-Be kind to strangers (some translations say aliens or foreigners).  Follow pretty much any of those commands.

-Take care of poor people (and people in general).  Any of those commands- like don't glean your vineyard a second time, or don't lend to them wth interest.

-Don't treat people wth special privileges.  Any of those commandments (some translations say "don't be partial to...") are to be followed.


There are many, many more.  But this covers a VAST array of the commandments if you go and look at them (as RAVENOUS pointed out).  It's pretty cool.

And keep this one thing in mind when studying rules and regs (the commandments):  They don't bring salvation.  They show us God's character, they help sanctify us, they help society run smoothly, and many other things.  But they DON'T bring salvation- this is usually at the core of legalism, accidently equating "obedience to commandments" with "salvation".
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2010, 05:40:50 PM »


And keep this one thing in mind when studying rules and regs (the commandments):  They don't bring salvation.  They show us God's character, they help sanctify us, they help society run smoothly, and many other things.  But they DON'T bring salvation- this is usually at the core of legalism, accidently equating "obedience to commandments" with "salvation".

Just a pet peeve here: Like so many terms in the world of theology, "Legalism" is thrown around so much that it picks up dirt (false definitions) that eventually become "common knowledge". The term in a semantical light does not reflect one doctrine or another, merely an emphasis on laws (legal) in a practiced (-ism) sense. Again while it speaks of those two things, it is an error to apply this term to a more concentrated doctrine such as what you are explaining as "equating 'obedience to commandments' with 'salvation'". In order to make it a valid statement, you must also admit one other ideal into the collection of definitions and this is very much in opposition to your definition. I know many people who are legalists but who do not believe that how many good things you do brings you salvation. They believe instead, that a person who is walking with Christ should seek to know the many various sins through study of Law, so that they can avoid those sins because scripture states that those who are under Christ do not commit sin (habitual sin) but seek to avoid it. They also believe that while the hope of salvation cannot be initially attained through not sinning, it is very capable of being taken away through sin and disobedience. In the end, these legalists do these things:

1.) Seek out to learn and understand what sin is right down to the jot and tittle.
2.) Avoid those sins strictly because:
-a.) Those who are of Christ seek to avoid sin.
-b.) Those who continue in sin lose their hope of salvation.

In the end they are seen spending tons of time studying the Law of God, and then trying their best to follow it as strictly as possible because of number 2 in the above list. I have more to say concerning this pet peeve, like how many legalists I know have been called this term and then spoken about as if they are in bondage to some evil force, or that their hope lies not in the redemption through Christ, but how many prayers or good deeds they can do to win their salvation. Its nuts.

On a side note, I've even been called a Pharisee by some crazy people because they thought I was a legalist who was trying to hurt the church by...making them understand and walk in the Almighty's holy laws more fully? Even if it is a form of bondage to seek out and Obey the Law of God, I still don't understand how bondage to a holy code of conduct equates to anything bad at all. What am I a slave to? Walking as righteously as possible? OH NO SOME ONE CALL THE COPS!

Bleh!

Peace
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 07:24:44 PM »

I don't understand exactly what you meant about "add some other ideal. . .", but I believe I get the jist of wat you're saying.  I totally agree 100%.  We say against "legalism": don't expect it to save you, straight up.  BUT- do expect it to keep you holy, and therefore, in a sense, keep you saved.  So yes, I think I agree totally.
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