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[beforHim]

Oh yeah, back to baptims:

If one has saving faith yet is not batised for good reasons (slips on steps, or has never heard the commandment before they die)- are we in agree ment that the person will still be saved ("we" as in everyone, not just me and RAVENOUS)?

Also, were does repentance come in?  Could someone ask forgivness for not being baptised, obtaining forgivness?  I guess if the person has to continually ask (meaning they continually miss baptism), then that might be fruit showing they're not really saved. 

Also, what about sprinkling vs pouring vs dunking?

[RAVENOUS]

Wow, thx for the explinations!  I see now better were you're coming from.  While we don't totally agree, I think we definitely can call each other brothers on Christ. 

There are many sons, many brothers, and many are prodigal sons. Not all of them agree on everything.

If one has saving faith yet is not batised for good reasons (slips on steps, or has never heard the commandment before they die)- are we in agreement that the person will still be saved ("we" as in everyone, not just me and RAVENOUS)?

I'd agree they'd be safe. Now if they went a year after being saved and out right refused to be baptized, I'd wonder if there was something amiss in their spiritual life.

Also, were does repentance come in?  Could someone ask forgivness for not being baptised, obtaining forgivness?  I guess if the person has to continually ask (meaning they continually miss baptism), then that might be fruit showing they're not really saved. 

Repentance according to the languages is basically: "To go in one direction, stop, and go in the opposite direction." This applies to our daily life in that we are walking in sin, we stop, and go in the opposite direction. My thought would be that repentance would go along with what I said upstairs, that baptism is a scriptural thing that is expected of believers as a public sign to everyone as well as themselves of their faith. Not only that but it is a key event in a believer's life that is an order of submission (which is too deep a topic for this thread). IF people refuse to be baptized, this is a sign that they're rebelling against Scriptural example and expectation. That's not repentance.

Also, what about sprinkling vs pouring vs dunking?

That can be tricky, but I always point to the Judaic custom of ritual washing. In old times (as well as today in Orthodox Jewish homes) when a person became ritually unclean, they were to bathe in a ritual bath, to submerge one's body. It is from this custom that we get all examples of baptism in the bible. When John baptized in the Jordan, it wasn't a symbolism of raising from the dead, it was in symbolism of taking a ritual bath to cleanse oneself of sins and whatnot. It was an act of remission of sin (as far as it could do that). Before his death, Yeshua's disciples did this in the Jordan as well but not for the "raising from the dead" bit either. That came later.

Yet, Moses sprinkled blood on many items in the temple and this purified the whole item no matter how big it was. It served much the same function as the Messiah's pre-crucifixion ritual bathes, and come to think of it some of the people of Israel were considered "baptized" when Moses sprinkled blood on them in the past [Leviticus 8:30].

I still think immersion is the only real means that fully enacts the symbolism part, sprinkling in its symbolism doesn't do it.

Peace

[Rebekia]

When John baptized in the Jordan, it wasn't a symbolism of raising from the dead, it was in symbolism of taking a ritual bath to cleanse oneself of sins and whatnot.

Mm. good stuff, good stuff. I dunno why I hadn't thought of that connection. Nice.

I figure if Yeshua was submerged and instructs us to "Follow in my footsteps" for his life example, surely if submersion was good for him, it can be for me as well. There's something really symbolically rich about "living waters" rushing over you as your submerged. The whole cleansing aspect goes from an intellectual and emotional recognition to a physical recognition in that moment... So it's just a spiritual understanding being made manifest thru physical action. Which is a constant theme...

[beforHim]

[quote="RAVENOUS]I'd agree they'd be safe. Now if they went a year after being saved and out right refused to be baptized, I'd wonder if there was something amiss in their spiritual life. [/quote]
Totally agree, 100%.

IF people refuse to be baptized, this is a sign that they're rebelling against Scriptural example and expectation. That's not repentance.

Yes, sounds good.

When John baptized in the Jordan, it wasn't a symbolism of raising from the dead, it was in symbolism of taking a ritual bath to cleanse oneself of sins and whatnot. It was an act of remission of sin (as far as it could do that).

Yes.  The symbolism for ressurection from the dead came later (as you said).

Basically, within Hebrew thought (and most thought other than that of westernized protestants, I think) the symbolism and the action are inseperable.  For Hebrews, saying you believed in something and then not doing what you could to actually live it out would mean you didn't believe in it at all.  Yes, faith in God is all that's needed, but to seperate faith from actions is not what God intended, else why in the world did He give us this physical realm?  We're not Hindus or Gnostics, you know.

[RAVENOUS]

Basically, within Hebrew thought (and most thought other than that of westernized protestants, I think) the symbolism and the action are inseperable.  For Hebrews, saying you believed in something and then not doing what you could to actually live it out would mean you didn't believe in it at all.  Yes, faith in God is all that's needed, but to seperate faith from actions is not what God intended, else why in the world did He give us this physical realm?  We're not Hindus or Gnostics, you know.

Yes, Gnosticism is addressed strongly in Colossians and is really the type of belief that states "Knowledge alone can save you." Which may be what James is addressing in in Epistle. He makes it a point to show that faith and belief are the same things when it comes to the spirit world, and that belief is really knowledge. Because who can say they have faith in a spirit if they don't believe it exists?

The way of the Gnostics taught that it was contact with the physical world that made people impure. They even told people to fast from foods and drinks on the sabbath in order to separate ourselves from food and water (which was evil to them). Fasting on the sabbath is allowed and Yeshua even states it is admirable, but to do it for the wrong reasons is abomination to the Almighty.

In one way baptism lines up with Gnostic thought in that the act of immersing oneself in water (which was evil) was symbolism of death, but after that the theories take different directions.

Peace

[Utsukushii]

My mother had me baptized when i was a baby. (if i remember correctly) she never said if it had anything to do with salvation.